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nvr2low
02-15-2007, 12:32 PM
is it just me or does it drive everyone else crazzy to see all these kids buying cameras and thinking they are photgraphers. i would someday love to shoot for an automotive magazine, but even with all the effort and time i have been putting in to get better i dont think im ready to take something like that on. im surfing around some forums and myspace and im fininding all these kids with photography websites, company names, and copyrighted pics that are awaful. the compositions are horible, their lighting sucks, and the processing doesnt seam to exhist. its really starting to piss me off that people like this are out there and not trying to lear how to be better. i know of one kid like this that is actually shooting for a magazine.

convergent
02-15-2007, 12:47 PM
Its the world we live in.... the McDonalds mentality. They go to Best Buy and get the DSLR equivalent of a "value meal", and then go home and take a picture of their car in the driveway. Then they load the images on their MySpace page and someone who's idea of fine art photography is using their camera phone, makes a comment that there car picture is "all that". What they really meant was that they liked the cool shaggy seat covers, but the unknowing photographer takes this as "go ahead" to launch themselves into the "pro" ranks. Within the hour, they've signed up for SmugMug and loaded up a template. Then they go take pictures of all their buddies' cars and load them up. A star is born!

Seriously, that is about as much thought as 95% of these guys put into it. They will end up trying to sell stuff to their friends, who will try to get as much stuff done as they can for free. This will entertain both of them for 6-12 months, after which the photographer will decide they shouldn't quit their "day job" at Target, and the star will have fallen.

Bottom line is that digital has made photography much more idiot proof, and much more easy to get your foot in. The thing is, that nothing has really changed when it comes to what it takes to do "pro" level work... if anything its harder in some ways with digital. A lot of people will be happy with the crap work you are talking about... because its better than their comparison point... their camera phone. A lot of people won't.

The noise level on the web is going to stay high and so pros will need to find other ways to reach their clients.... ways that the McDonald-grapher isn't going to ever be attempting.

nvr2low
02-15-2007, 01:14 PM
that seams to make alot of sense. i think i will keep to the old fashion way of hard work and earning my way. if anything it feels alot more rewarding when you put the time and effort into getting one excelent shot rather than 100 just ok shots at best.

Orgnoi1
02-15-2007, 01:17 PM
I guess I can see both sides of the fence to an extent...

TRUE photography is a dying art so to speak... exactly for the reasons both of you have stated... but I dont discourage people from trying because there has to be someone who legitimately follows in our footsteps when we dont want to do it anymore. Most of these people will never see the inside of a darkroom, and for that I feel sorry, but I guess the digital darkroom can be as fulfilling (god I made myself feel old there). Its one of the REAL reasons I stay in film still, between medium format, and soon to be large format (thanks epatsellis!!)... so I can preserve in my own mind what it REALLY takes to make a photograph...

Slightly off point... but I want to say that in the last two days, I have gotten in two fairly hot arguements on two other boards with people who keep preaching to newbies to use manual focus... honestly *I* use manual focus sometimes... but really both times the person arguing was way off base... yes when we were younger thats all there was... and yes its more fulfilling to manually do something instead of relying on the camera for every detail of the exposure... but really digital photography is here to stay, and while it takes a lot out of the *mastering* of photography, some people are doing it because they are serious about taking shots too. Its just SO readily available to the average Joe that everyone tries to take a hand at it... most of which never take the camera off full auto their whole lives...

aceman152
02-15-2007, 01:29 PM
I must say I am one of the many that are never going to see the inside of a darkroom. I find it to be a sad experience even though I am not at the same level of many of the other photographers on this site, and many others. I do practice quite a bit though.

Digital photography has opened up photography to me and Shannon. On both our S2 and our 20D (not that we needed this camera but wanted something we could grow with) we practice shooting with every mode available to expand our understanding of what it is we are doing.

I know this probably didn't make a lot of sense, but I am of feeling that we shouldn't really get upset about people that take pictures in the way mentioned above, but maybe even encourage them to practice and learn the ways of photography.

convergent
02-15-2007, 01:46 PM
haha... I think McDonald-ographer needs an "o" to sound right.

I may have come off a bit flip in my response, and I really didn't mean it that way. I never saw a darkroom and never will... I have no interest in it. Though I have been somewhat interested in photography for many years, I am one of those that didn't really get fully in until digital came along.

Whereever we are on our photography journey, there is someone that can blow us away in some aspect of photography. I do pretty well with sports, but when I compare my work to that of a lot of other sports photographers, I realize how far I have to go.

I think the original post was specifically talking about people that spend a week with a camera and then try to pass themselves off as a "pro". You see the posts on other big forums... "I just got my first DSLR yesterday and I'm doing my first wedding on Saturday! Can you tell me how to setup the camera to do weddings?". THAT is the target of the McDonald-ographer that I was talking about. No training, no experience... got a camera... now I'm a pro!

nvr2low
02-15-2007, 02:14 PM
I think the original post was specifically talking about people that spend a week with a camera and then try to pass themselves off as a "pro". You see the posts on other big forums... "I just got my first DSLR yesterday and I'm doing my first wedding on Saturday! Can you tell me how to setup the camera to do weddings?". THAT is the target of the McDonald-ographer that I was talking about. No training, no experience... got a camera... now I'm a pro!

thats exactly what i am talking about. i have been into photography for about a year now. i did take a class in highschool and i have seen the darkroom but digital is what made it affordable for me to do. now only being into photography for a year i have seen a huge amount of growth im my talent because i have tried to learn as much as possible. like convergent said, its these kids that have an slr or a really nice point and shoot for a week and all of a sudden have websites and jobs lined up when they really have no clue what they are doing. i was looking at a myspace page as i wrote this that is exactly that. the photos are awful but for some reason he thinks that he has a worthy business.

JustinL
02-15-2007, 03:00 PM
Slightly off point... but I want to say that in the last two days, I have gotten in two fairly hot arguements on two other boards with people who keep preaching to newbies to use manual focus... honestly *I* use manual focus sometimes... but really both times the person arguing was way off base... yes when we were younger thats all there was... and yes its more fulfilling to manually do something instead of relying on the camera for every detail of the exposure... but really digital photography is here to stay, and while it takes a lot out of the *mastering* of photography, some people are doing it because they are serious about taking shots too. Its just SO readily available to the average Joe that everyone tries to take a hand at it... most of which never take the camera off full auto their whole lives...

I had someone at a BBQ yelling at me because I don't use manual focus when I shoot. I left that party so confused.

As for the photography being a dying art... I totally agree. I've seen many cases when someone buys the camera and they think that's all they need, nothing else.

Funny side story: I got a phone call the other night from a friend. (Background) Now his wife WANTS to be a wedding photog with no experience. For Christmas he got her a Canon 30D and a Canon 24-105 lens.
I was asked "how do you set the aperature on a 350XT?"
I replied "shouldn't your wife know?"
I must have been on speaker phone because in the background I hear her yell "they're not the same camera! MINE has more buttons!!!"

I told them how to set it, then said "for future questions, please refer to the manual" :Hammer

Teresa221
02-15-2007, 03:12 PM
It happens, and while frustrating, like pp's said - they'll soon learn.

And gosh-darn about the manaul focus! What is the big, stinkin' deal? I'm an old filmie, and and I HAVE seen the inside of a darkroom and DID use a camera that didn't have the ability to auto focus and ask me what I use almost exclusively now? Yeah, thats right, auto :rolleyes: It's a nice little feature to have!

I do have very little tolerance for those who go out and get DSLR's expecting to get pro quality photo's trying to ask me questions (what kind of camera do you use? how do I make the background "blurry"?). I usually refer them to "Understanding Exposure", their manual or a local class. Now - a beginning hobbyist who is serious about learning - no problems whatsoever sitting down with them and helping them out.

convergent
02-15-2007, 04:03 PM
Teresa, just be careful when helping someone setup their camera. I helped a friend get their Rebel XT setup to shoot low light sports, and then they didn't know how to switch it back to their "day to day" mode. I found out several weeks later that they had been stuck not knowing how to change it for quite a while. I felt kind of bad that I did that to them.

nvr2low
02-15-2007, 04:46 PM
since i am still learning the more advanced features of my camera i personaly find it best if i am show how to do it myslef. i found a book written specificaly for my D50 and it is amazing the things i learned from that. it is a camera manual with explinations and pictures to show exactly how to do what you want.

i think just telling people how to do it and net explaining it, or just doing it for them is not much help. it helps that specific shot but it doesnt help teach you how to do it in the future.

Teresa221
02-15-2007, 05:05 PM
I never change people's settings for them ;)

I will talk with them about aperature, ss, ISO, focus settings, backbutton focus etc. etc. They have to play and decide for themselves how they work best.

Plus - I'm talking about helping people that WOULD know how to get their camera settings back to where they wanted :D

Orgnoi1
02-15-2007, 06:41 PM
I must say I am one of the many that are never going to see the inside of a darkroom. I find it to be a sad experience even though I am not at the same level of many of the other photographers on this site, and many others. I do practice quite a bit though.

Digital photography has opened up photography to me and Shannon. On both our S2 and our 20D (not that we needed this camera but wanted something we could grow with) we practice shooting with every mode available to expand our understanding of what it is we are doing.

I know this probably didn't make a lot of sense, but I am of feeling that we shouldn't really get upset about people that take pictures in the way mentioned above, but maybe even encourage them to practice and learn the ways of photography.

believe me... you two are doing great at photography... and if you want to take a darkroom class there may even be one on base... you would just need to get a 35mm camera which is cheap enough these days...

I guess maybe my post is more geared towards what Mike was saying about pros who buy a camera and it makes them a pro... no training... and no skills... it doesnt apply to those who really try and learn the gear... and want to learn to better themselves...

aceman152
02-15-2007, 07:46 PM
i guess I came off a little off color with my reply to this thread. It is the same with motorcycles, which I am much more familiar with. Someone goes out and buys the biggest horsepower bike they can afford even if they have never ridden before and think that they are professional racers.

My mentality though is always push them to actually learn the art whether motorcycles, photography, or even general life skills! I hope I did not offend anyone with my comments, or with my sudden change in the signature line.
Please except my apologizes to all on the forum. If the mods or admins care to erase my post please feel free to.

zacker
02-15-2007, 07:52 PM
first off... Macdonalds-o-grapher is hysterical mike and Aron!!

Ross, if you want ill go to that other forum and get you back bro!

Justin, funny story.."mine has more buttons...lol

and as for MF... Screw that, my camera and lenses are all auto focus, i paid big (not huge but enough) $$ for them and ill be damned if im letting some jagg off with 20/20 vision tell me to not use it!! lol

As for newbies.. on myspace there are sooo many kids who are acting the part with their cheap digi p&s cams but...there are quite a few who do have the eye and the talent but are too young to afford a good DSLR or just plain dont have the scratch to get one.. As mike said, the best are the ones who ask.."I just got my first camera, im doing a weddint in two days, how do you turn it on and is a 512MB card hold enough shots?" (and now, suddenly im seeing alot more new "studio's" popping up on the boards)lol Photography has to be one of the quickest growing hobby-professions going! and i say hobby professions because thats what it is to most!